
              Conspiracy Nation -- Vol. 7  Num. 20
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                    ("Quid coniuratio est?")
 
 
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BOSNIA: HOW THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND MEDIA
HAVE FAILED AND MISLED THE AMERICAN PEOPLE
==========================================
 
Special thanks to my "Chicago connection" for sending a videotape 
of a public access program, "Broadsides", which was taped on June 
6, 1995. Host is Mr. Sherman Skolnick of the Citizens' Committee 
to Clean Up the Courts; co-host is Mr. Robert E. Cleveland, an 
attorney and associate of Mr. Skolnick. Guests are James Nagle, 
an attorney with the law firm of Querry & Harrow, Andrew B. 
Spiegel, also an attorney, and Mike Pavlovic, a Serbian-American.
 
Pardon spelling errors. If you know the correct spellings, please 
let me know.
 
Contact info: Andrew B. Spiegel, PO Box 396, Wheaton, IL 60187
 
 +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +  +
 
[...continued...]
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So what are you saying? You're saying there's a symbolism: they 
want the world to pay attention to what's happening. They says, 
"Hey! We're not gonna harm these people but we're grabbing these 
people to make a point that *our* viewpoint is not being *heard* 
for some reason!" So now everybody says, "Why did you grab these 
people? They've got the 'U.N. thing?'" Is that it?
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
And the news media cannot afford -- going back to my wrestling 
analogy -- they can't afford to portray the "bad guys" as the 
"good guys"; they have to *stay* the "bad guys" to keep this 
story...
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So your view, as would-be peacemakers, is that there are bad guys 
and good guys in that area, right?
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
There are bad guys. There are good guys. And there are great 
guys.
 
 
JAMES NAGLE:
To answer the question that you keep asking: "*Why* won't the 
United States sit down and talk with Karadzic?" Their position at 
this point [June 1995] is, they don't recognize him. Before Nixon 
went to China, we didn't recognize China. Did that mean that 
there were not a billion Chinese living over there?
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
This is not clear to a lot of Americans. *Who* does our State 
Department, our government, recognize?
 
 
JAMES NAGLE:
They have been dealing with, at this point, Milosovich, who is 
the leader of Yugoslavia, the former head of the Yugoslav 
Communist Party. And *he* is the one that the U.S. recognizes. 
And that's where our "declaration of independence" comes in...
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Which one of them is accused of being a war criminal?
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, ironically enough, Milosovich was accused as a war criminal 
*until* *they* *started* *negotiating* *with* *him*! They started 
negotiating with him and suddenly he's not a war criminal, it's 
just Karadzic and Miladich(sp?).
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So in other words, the one *you* went to negotiate with to try to 
make a peace understanding, constitution and all that, is not 
recognized. And he's not recognized, why? Because the State 
Department doesn't take him seriously?
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, because for one thing, as far as I'm concerned, from an 
international law basis, they have not declared themselves as an 
independent country. If they are of the constituent republic of 
Yugoslavia, then the person to talk to is Milosovich.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Under the Logan Act, no American citizen, private citizen, is 
supposed to negotiate foreign policy. So you went over there, 
negotiating foreign policy.
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Not only were we *not* negotiating foreign policy, but I think 
it's clear even to the casual observer of the situation that 
there *is* very little foreign policy of the United States.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
[laughs] There's no foreign policy, therefore they couldn't 
violate the Logan Act because there isn't any foreign policy one 
way or the other! Right? Is that fair?
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
*I* think so.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So where do you think the thing is going? I mean, what is the 
hopeful sign? We've seen all the bloodshed, plenty of it, on the 
television: bodies, buildings bombed. What is the hopeful sign?
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, the hopeful sign is that the Republic of Srpska and 
Republic of Croina will adopt the "declaration of independence", 
adopt the "constitution", and create a democratic form of 
constitutional government where people can live freely regardless 
of race, religion or creed. And if they do that then, hopefully, 
it will bring peace to that troubled area of the world.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Well the point of the matter is that that area (you mentioned 
about democracy and all that): Have they ever *had* democracy 
there?
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
They have a democratic form of government in the Republic of 
Srpska now.
 
And before we run out of time, let me tell you that we have tapes 
of the Croatian genocide in Bukovar(sp?) and the Croatian 
genocide perpetrated against the Serbs from 1941 to 1990. And the 
post office box has been flashed from time to time on the screen. 
If people are interested in obtaining those tapes, they should 
write there for further information. [Andrew B. Spiegel, PO Box 
396, Wheaton, IL 60187]
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
You're on an educational mission, all three of you.
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Right.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
And all three of you would go back, to try again, even though 
you've been rebuffed by the mainstream media...
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
I think that another point that should be made is that the 
Bosnians have hired a public relations firm to handle their side 
of the story. And they're just putting out all this information 
that is pro-Bosnian -- which is *one* of the reasons why the news 
media is so slanted.
 
 
ROBERT CLEVELAND:
Let me ask you this: When you went over there and were doing 
these things *pro bono*, so to speak, for [their] government and 
for [their] president, weren't you on their local TV and in their 
local paper, their media? Didn't they play that up over there?
 
 
JAMES NAGLE:
We were on their local TV; we were on their local radio -- both 
in the Republic of Srpska *and* in Yugoslavia.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So you were played up as heroes there. And you should have been 
played up as peacemakers in the United States.
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Correct. When we left, I thought that we would get all kinds of 
news media coverage.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
So if the three of you wanted to smuggle into the country and 
sell them some exotic weapons, you might have been better off; 
you would have been accepted by the United States if you were 
really three arms merchants.
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
The exotic piece of equipment that we tried to bring into the 
Republic of Srpska was a popcorn maker, which...
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
That they wouldn't allow into the country!?
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
...which the Hungarian border guards said was "a violation of 
U.N. sanctions."
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
By what stretch of the imagination were they gonna turn it into a 
weapon?
 
 
ANDREW SPIEGEL:
Well, when we tried to convince them that this was humanitarian 
relief, and not something that was covered by U.N. sanctions, we 
were talking about Bill Clinton. And it turns out, we learned 
later, we should have been talking about "Ben Franklin" [$100 
bills] and how many of them we'd have to give them to let us 
bring it through.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
Let's ask our Serbian-American representative here, what do you 
think? Is there peace possible in the area? Or are they going to 
go on killing each other for another thousand years?
 
 
MIKE PAVLOVIC:
If we want to solve the problem, we can solve the problem. 
Twenty-four hours. I know. I am sure. But America should *see* 
*all* *sides*. They recognize only two sides and show on 
television two sides. On the Serbian side, they never show 
anything good -- only bad. Now, they must sit around the table 
and work together, and negotiate. And I *know* that we can solve 
the problem. We *stop* killing and negotiate. If we must 
negotiate for ten years, we should negotiate for ten years. And 
then, make economical war to be able... see how can economically 
go forward. And then we build again, together.
 
 
SHERMAN SKOLNICK:
I want to thank our three illustrious peacemakers. I hope you go 
back there and make peace. I appreciate you came on our program. 
And I thank everybody for watching "Broadsides". And call up your 
local newsfakers and ask them why these three have not been 
played up as heroes in their own country, the United States.
 
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